In this episode Adam talks with Dr Courtney Walton. We talk about the doctor's research on the role of compassion-based interventions for mental health in sport and the performing arts.
Utilising both his training as a psychologist and multidisciplinary research expertise across the fields of clinical psychology, sport psychology, and neuropsychology, Dr Courtney's research explores mental health within competitive performance environments. His research is primarily focused on the contexts of sport and the performing arts, with particular interests in self-compassion, body image, and gender.
In May 2023, he took up an Academic Fellowship at the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences (2023-2026). Here, he primarily conducts research on:
MAIN INTERVIEW RECORDING
03:08.60
a_goodburn
So thank you for chatting with me Courtney and thank you for giving up some of your precious time I understand you are um in the midst of a lot of work at the moment. Um, so I'll I'll try to keep this as concise as possible. Um, but could you tell me a little bit about this research. Um.
03:16.82
Courtney
We shouldn't.
03:27.81
a_goodburn
Regarding with the performing arts and with the compassion self-compassion I believe.
03:34.37
Courtney
Sure, um, so the the research we're currently doing is looking at um, essentially from a broader angle we're looking at mental health in the performing arts. So um, my background is very much in in mental health within. Sports environments and really had an interest in how a lot of that that kind of translates into other performance contexts and so I've spent a small amount of time in in a dance school and and was very interested in how some of the work I'm doing in sport. Crosses over so the project is looking at mental health and performing artists and in particular, we're interested in understanding how do performing artists relate to themselves and how can that have an impact whether positively or negatively on their mental health. Um, and so a big part of that is looking at this kind of concept of self-compassion. Um, and so the first part of the project will be a bit of ah, a kind of online survey getting a sense of of some of these relationships and then the second part of the survey the second part of the project. Later in the year we'll actually be testing out. Ah a pretty simple, um, intervention and getting a sense of of how performing artists feel about these concepts and whether they're relevant and that will help us kind of design broader and kind of more.
05:04.39
Courtney
Comprehensive interventions in the future.
05:07.72
a_goodburn
And when and when you say intervention is is sort of a you're thinking of a 1 on 1 um talking to artists about um what they're experiencing.
05:19.15
Courtney
I Think um, so ah, you know a really important part of designing any kind of intervention. Um is to speak with the people who it's likely going to for and get a sense of what their preferences are. And so that's a big part of what we'll do in this project is actually speaking to artists and saying you know getting a sense of how they feel this could be most effective. Um I anticipate that this will likely either be in more of a um group format if it's. If. It's kind of in the real world so to say or else online if it's more individualised and I guess the the reason for that is practicality. Um I'm sure a lot of people will be familiar with how difficult it is to get an appointment with ah a mental professional at the moment and so. Having something that's more accessible is is a key part of anything we design.
06:17.19
a_goodburn
Sure, great and how did you come about this idea specifically because your background is in Sport Arena How did you sort of make the connection thinking. Um this there are similarities had.
06:26.93
Courtney
Um.
06:33.46
Courtney
Um, yeah, well. Ah so my I mean my background is not in the performing arts I don't have any um, ah much performing capacity inside me. Um.
06:47.62
a_goodburn
You're being modest.
06:51.21
Courtney
I'm being honest. Um, but I have always loved sport. Um, and and so you know I became interested in this area of of kind of my you know knowledge in psychology and mental health and how that can be applied to sport. And so a lot of the work that we do in in sports context really looks at what are the features of these environments that can potentially have ah a negative effect on on athletes' mental Health and so I say that because. Um, we know that sport can be so beneficial for for individuals particularly in the community and for young people. But I'm talking more about these kind of more elite, Highly competitive spaces and and in those spaces we know there are things like you know, exceptional. Pressures to perform we know there's there's patterns of potentially abusive behavior from from people in positions of Power. We know there are a number of really significant pressures and expectations and norms around body image weight. Things like that We know there are patterns like Perfectionism high rates of Self-criticism um and probably anyone who's in the performing arts listening to things like that will think well that's she's very similar to to my area in the performing arts.
08:25.80
Courtney
Um, and so I during my training in my master's I did ah a placement in a dance school and I kind of saw a lot of that stuff I Saw a lot of the you know that was ah a very healthy environment I would say that was um. Really supportive place but I could see how a lot of that stuff that I knew about sport could crossover into that environment and so yeah I kind of knew a few people in that area speaking to them spoke about the similarities and thought. I Think it would be great to to expand that Work. We're doing in sport into other areas where you know there's this things that could be improved potentially for the in terms of the the mental health and wellbeing of everyone involved.
09:15.94
a_goodburn
So what would be your wish um to come from this this project that you're working on at at the end.
09:27.44
Courtney
Um I Guess um, 2 things probably um, firstly I think just better better knowledge and in in sport and we have really. Quite rapidly increased knowledge and understanding about how to better support mental health in those spaces so it was not very long ago at all. Um that the sorts of things we we would. Talking about now in terms of mental Health would be completely unheard of and and you you often see that difference now in Elite Sport context where you know players and athletes have very different expectations of what they think is appropriate than a coach might and that and that very much comes down to um. Ah, change you know in terms of of how people see these things and and my understanding which is admittedly is primarily based on kind of scientific literature is that that has changed massively in sport and not so much in the performing arts. Um, and so we see that there's a really big growth in literature looking at what is it in sport that that um can be improved to help the mental health of of everyone involved.
10:55.70
Courtney
Whereas when I kind of look at similar sorts of things and the performing answers. There's much less. There's much less Known. Um, and so that to me suggests that anyone that's in these spaces potentially doesn't have um as much of the information available to be supporting them. Um, and so I hope that projects like this can really just start to add to that knowledge building stage and then you know flowing on from that I hope that it can kind of inform better ways of doing things and whether that's. That's kind of more cultural environmental um changes that people can can start thinking about or whether that's actually a specific intervention that people can take part in.. Hopefully it's a bit of both. Um, but. But yeah I think primarily it's around building up that knowledge knowledge base because you know there's lots of people doing incredible stuff in this area. Um, certainly but there's it does feel like there is less than in than in other similar environments.
12:07.55
a_goodburn
And on that what what was sort of the reception you've received so far regarding this research project of yours looking into this ah area that as you say is probablyly not as ah, explored compared to sports. For example.
12:24.60
Courtney
Um.
12:25.58
a_goodburn
Um, have you received any sort of ah feedback or from artists or or even your your fellow colleagues.
12:35.36
Courtney
Yeah I think um, we'll learn more in the second stage when it's a bit more face-to-face. Um at the stage right at the moment which is is just an online survey. Um.
12:48.20
Courtney
People I have spoke to have said this is great. We need more of this. Um, but it's It's so far I found it kind of difficult to to um I guess. Find the best ways to to come into this space and and collect data and and do a study like this that people feel like is useful and doesn't feel just like someone from a university coming in and and taking some data and Leaving. Um, and so I'm very mindful of that and and I really hope that the second stage where we start to be more kind of on the ground speaking with people doing interviews getting a sense of what people really want or really help inform a bit more understanding I think in terms of of.. What best we can be doing as ah as a University research team to be to be supporting these spaces.
13:52.53
a_goodburn
And have you managed to get this information out. So I know I became aware of you through ah through State opera that you sent out some information and that was passed on. Um, um, whatever means have you sort of trying to get. Ah.
14:02.10
Courtney
Um.
14:10.23
a_goodburn
And awareness of what you're doing.
14:12.78
Courtney
Yeah I mean that's that's been ah the main way so far is we have ah we we kind of spoke with arts wellbeing collective If you're aware of them when we were designing the project and so they've kind of helped us with distribution. Um. I've been sending lots of emails and and then and then people that I know in this kind of environment have also helped with with kind of sharing among people they know so that's kind of been the primary primary ways so far.
14:47.74
a_goodburn
And how's the response been is ah have you been out to get a lot of of responses back or has it been a bit slow going.
14:56.31
Courtney
It's and it's a little slow going. But I think that's completely to be expected when you don't have ah an established relationship. Um, my experience has been that but I either don't hear back or I hear back from someone very enthusiastic. Um, and so I think that that that probably speaks to well a number of things a lot of the time about capacity. Everyone's overworked and it's another thing to take On. Um, but I think also you know people who may have for whom it really kind of clicks as being relevant. Um. Might be more more inclined I guess to to share that research and and try and get it out. There.
15:38.84
a_goodburn
Is there any um in your research in terms of what happened with Covid and the ah the obvious impact in the Arts industry. Is there correlation with ah with your what your but prompted the work that you're doing or is it just being coincidental that. This was something that you're looking at and obviously a lot of artists have been suffering um with ah sort of Covid lockdown and it's just sort of timed itself quite well.
15:59.74
Courtney
Yeah, yeah.
16:08.60
Courtney
Yeah, well, it's a bit of both. Um I actually joined the university of Melbourne in March Twenty Twenty so right in the thick of things. Um, and so that's when I started thinking about the kinds of projects that I wanted to do and. And so part of it was just that's just the time that that we're in but another part of it is recognizing that the performing arts in particular I mean well a lot of industries but performing artists the performing arts being one of those industries that I think was hit. Particularly hard. Um and I do have so I have a very small I work one day as ah as a psychologist I do work with a couple of performing artists and and they'd you know spoken about the the real difficulties during this period of of kind of. Changes to to what was possible for work and and the kind of uncertainty of of what lied ahead in that industry. So we've tried not to make the project lean too much on covid because we want it to have you know impact. Much more broadly than that. Um, but I think it is relevant for many things and at this point in time and still so as as things are only kind of just coming back now.
17:40.94
a_goodburn
And do you see? do you that your perspectives change a little bit since as you say you're you're kind of an outsider looking in to the Industry. Um. With your perceptions prior to now you sort of you're speaking to a lot more people when you're starting getting some data coming in has has that changed your views in any way.
18:05.90
Courtney
Um, not yet, but that's just that's I think that's just where I'm at with the project. Um, because it's' it's kind of happening out there on the internet instead of faceto face. So.
18:18.81
a_goodburn
Um.
18:22.13
Courtney
Yeah I think that all happen more in the second stage of the project where we actually start to get performing artists in a room talk with them get their perspectives I think that's going to be the stage that will be much more and collaborative and much more open I Guess. So whereas at the moment where we're at with the project is it's an online survey I'm sure there's lots of really fascinating data in there but until we close it I can't look at it So I haven't looked at what's come through yet I don't really know which way the the data is leaning. And and secondly it's all completely Anonymous. So Um I don't really have a sense of of who's saying what?? um, but that will definitely come from the the second part of the project and hopefully yeah as you say it's It's kind of.
19:07.50
a_goodburn
Oh.
19:17.40
Courtney
New for for our team to be doing this stuff in the performing arts. So I think we'll get a lot more understanding in the years to come in saying that I should mention one of our collaborators Margaret Osborne who's a psychologist at the university of Melbourne and. And she's very experienced working with musicians and does a lot of stuff on performance anxiety and and music performance and so she's she's very much informed, a lot of our ideas and and the direction of the project. So it's being good to have someone. Um. On the project team who who does have that performing arts expertise to add to our kind of more performance based knowledge but not necessarily performing arts.
20:07.44
a_goodburn
1 aspect for life find very good about your research is the area of um self-compassion and um and a lot of your questionnaire that you had really looked a lot of.
20:14.10
Courtney
In.
20:23.50
a_goodburn
Ah, um, how much you know how much compassion do you show yourself and so that's a similar and that's a similar ah issue with sports people as well. You found.
20:28.85
Courtney
And.
20:40.31
Courtney
Yeah, So there's there's actually quite a growing pretty pretty significant body of research now looking at at self-compassion in Sport Um, and and it's been shown to be incredibly. Important across a range of different things. So Some of my research has shown that the importance of self-compassion for more kind of mental health and wellbeing outcomes. Um in athletes. Um, and others have have. Shown the value of that around things like body image which is obviously relevant in sport in some sports in particular and obviously has a lot of crossover to to many areas of the performing arts. Um, and also you know, importantly. It's shown to be really helpful for performance and and so athletes who who are able to engage some of that more compassionate responding to themselves during times that ah that are difficult whether that's you know during something like Covid whether that's. After you know a bit of ah um, a performance that they're not happy with whatever it might be athletes that are able to kind of respond to that in a more compassionate way rather than what what we might call ah a self-attacking way. Um, perform Better. You know they.
22:07.45
Courtney
Find ways to to integrate that knowledge to improve rather than kind of beating themselves up to the point that it actually doesn't help them. It. It doesn't improve where they go from there. Um, and so. That knowledge I think really informed why we wanted to go into the performing arts because there are a handful at most studies looking at self compassion and performing artists. Um, one of the um.
22:43.50
Courtney
More clear studies that looked at that was published only a month ago which I've got bookmarked I actually need to read that but that could just came out. Um, but before that there's there's really very few really just a couple of studies in the performing arts which is quite surprising to me and. And so I think that's definitely an area that that is ripe for for more exploration and the reason being is that there are lots of um, you know, but I'm I'm interested in. Um. Something called compassion focused therapy which is like a type of therapy similar to cognitive behavioral therapy. Um, and that really uses those kind of principles of compassion to try and improve how people can relate to themselves during difficult difficult periods and so there's kind of like a. An end goal with this research which is we can start to think about well how do we improve compassion with with performing artists.
23:46.83
a_goodburn
Great. Um, this is a question that I don't expect you to have factual knowledge on but um, but but you probably have a bit better awareness than I do but do you think in in the Australian culture where we're sort of.
24:05.40
a_goodburn
We're meant to have a fairly just get the job done. Um, and I think um, one of your in again back in with your research the idea that if we reflect too much it somehow softens us or actually lowers our performance. Level in some way have we become too ah worried about how we're feeling and and but somehow our standard will drop in some way I'm poly wording this really badly, but but um, that idea that if um.
24:32.79
Courtney
You.
24:41.23
a_goodburn
Bit more forgiving of ourselves that somehow our standard will job because we need to be pushing ourselves and we need to be striving for for greatness and if we stop for a moment to as someone might say let ourselves off the hook.
24:41.82
Courtney
No. And.
24:56.78
Courtney
The.
24:58.74
a_goodburn
Um, the perception might be that Well you know that's that's not the elite attitude that you should be having did you've put This is probably something you might cover later on in your research but is that something that you sort of rings true for you.
25:16.12
Courtney
Absolutely yeah, it's um, and there's actually ah a specific scale um developed by Paul Gilbert who who is a incredible researcher and psychologist over in the Uk who who developed compassion focused therapy.
25:31.89
Courtney
And it's a scale called the fears of compassion and so um, that measures how people are fearful or resistant to the idea of um, either being compassionate to themselves being compassionate to others or receiving compassion from other people. Um, and and that is because it is a common experience that people have that kind of resistance or block to the idea of being compassionate to themselves and I think as you say that that does come down to those sorts of ideas that you mentioned Of. Ah, feeling like you're letting yourself off or you're kind of going easy on yourself and that's that's no way to get ahead and that's no way to be the Best. Um and I think it it kind of comes down to helping people to better Understand. Um.
26:27.87
Courtney
You know, depending on the context. What a compassionate response actually would be and so I would never be encouraging a um, ah you know, high level um ballet dancer for example or football player to be. Um, lowering necessarily their standards or to to let themselves off the hook or whatever that might look like but there are ways of responding to yourself that are more supportive and understanding of the difficulties that you might have faced. Um, that are more soothing for that that difficulty rather than adding on another level of attacking and and that's because we know that that doesn't really help. Um you you can still pick up on. What it is that you maybe didn't do so well at that you need to improve On. You can still direct your attention to to weaknesses to things that you want to grow and and develop but do so in a way that is more understanding of why those difficulties might exist rather than. Suck it Up. You know you? you've got to be better. All these sorts of things that that we typically go to especially competitive people especially people in in very pressured Contexts. Um, and so a lot of the time it is about helping people understand that being being more self-compassionate.
28:05.83
Courtney
No way means that they're they're kind of letting themselves off or or lowering their their performance expectations.
28:14.66
a_goodburn
Great! Great! Thank you? Um, now we come to the fun part now I say that it might be fun for me up I'm just gonna ask you some questions. So so we've we've gone through the all the factual work stuff.
28:21.00
Courtney
Um.
28:31.76
a_goodburn
I sort of in the podcast. What I've done so far is is just ask 5 random questions and is about you so you can you? you can choose. You can choose to pass is none none of them are too personal. You don't have to divulge any deep dark secrets. But it's just a little bit about you. Um.
28:38.40
Courtney
Um, okay oh no.
28:45.63
Courtney
Yeah.
28:51.21
a_goodburn
So you ready says so it's just sort of immediate responses and you can pass if it's getting too hard. Um, first what do you think we owe each other as a human being that's a tough 1
28:51.86
Courtney
And I guess that.
29:03.70
Courtney
Who What? what.
29:07.94
a_goodburn
I thought I could ask you this one? Um, for this one is a safe one to ask with you? Yeah, what do you think we owe each other as human beings.
29:16.27
Courtney
What do I think we owe each other as human beings I mean there's a lot there. Um well the first thing that comes to my mind is is respect and I think.
29:24.53
a_goodburn
Um.
29:30.91
a_goodburn
Um.
29:32.76
Courtney
Um, respect is is a big part of of what comes to mind straight away for me I Guess um, you know it's quite broad in terms of when I'm thinking about what I might owe other people. But I think respect quite nicely. Um, sets the tone for for a lot of other things that that become important um in in terms of helping where we can and and doing what we can to support each other and all of those other sorts of important things. But but starting with that level of respect that thing opens the door. Get to all of the next bits and.
30:13.39
a_goodburn
I Think you answered that you answered that very well so how it's good. There was no right and wrong. But that was a good response. Um, and it's no right or wrong. Um here Hopefully this is easier. What brings you the most joy.
30:17.42
Courtney
And there's probably a wrong. Yeah.
30:31.25
Courtney
What brings me the most joy. Wow I'm not expected to answer things like this. Um.
30:38.20
a_goodburn
I didn't put it in email as a foot I should maybe I should put it in the email and warn them. But I didn't want you to think too much about it.
30:43.58
Courtney
Um, those those? yeah well exactly they would become um more authentic when I'm not expecting it. But it's also scarier. Um, when sorry when do I most enjoy myself The question was.
30:55.28
a_goodburn
What doesn't have to be the most to it. Yeah could do this loses power Yes freephraser.
31:02.30
Courtney
I Think um, well in a non-specific way I would say I most enjoy myself when I'm in periods of um of. Well, what's like what psychologist my call flow when I feel like I'm really immersed in something um and like everyone no matter how much training as a psychologist I do I still tend to spend more time than I would like in the future or the past.
31:21.68
a_goodburn
Now.
31:38.18
Courtney
And and so I certainly feel like times when I'm happiest or most enjoying myself is when I'm really immersed in what I'm doing in that moment and also eating chocolate.
31:38.79
a_goodburn
Um.
31:49.26
a_goodburn
Great cool. This is now it's getting wet ah chocolate. Yeah, but that's a as a give that's a given as a given um here we go weird weird one now What is your favorite word to say out loud.
32:04.85
Courtney
Oh God Um, my.
32:06.40
a_goodburn
And it does and it can be a swear word if if it helps it may not be.
32:11.16
Courtney
I Don't think I am much of a swearer. My favorite word to say out loud is.
32:21.50
Courtney
I My God I don't know probably if I listen back to this podcast I'll realize what I say too much. Um I say I'm a lot I don't know my favorite words out loud.
32:31.86
a_goodburn
Up arm a lot. Ah.
32:38.50
a_goodburn
Ah, my mine is weird and I don't say it a lot but I but I like the word it's nourishment I don't know why yeah I don't know why I just like the words sort of for for Knowur the word sounds like nourishment I know it's the.
32:38.43
Courtney
Nothing jumps to mind I'm sorry that's boring.
32:47.70
Courtney
Um, nourishment. Yeah okay I like that ah is a good one. Yeah, that's a good one. Um, yeah.
32:56.12
a_goodburn
but but yeah if that was what Brooks I was thinking. What would I say nourishment? Yeah, but I don't I don't say enough I I need to find more times in my life to say the word nourishment. Um, yeah, so ah.
33:02.82
Courtney
Ah, wish I had a better answer.
33:06.21
Courtney
And more opportunities for it. Yeah yeah.
33:12.83
a_goodburn
What is your favorite thing about yourself.
33:17.76
Courtney
My great hair. Um I Forget no one can see. We're bald. Yeah, but ah.
33:19.35
a_goodburn
You're great where we got something in common. No what now we ruined it so I was going to say we all look like Fario with long flowing hair. But but no.
33:34.00
Courtney
Oh my favorite thing about myself Now that's probably the hardest one isn't it. Um.
33:47.74
Courtney
I I think I got a sense of humor I'll go with that. Yeah I like to I like those moments of making someone laugh and I feel like um.
33:53.70
a_goodburn
That's good I'll take I'll take that I'll take that. Not.
34:03.90
Courtney
Those are things I like when that happens.
34:07.52
a_goodburn
Cool, cool and last question you've done very well. What is the 1 thing people would never guess about you.
34:13.44
Courtney
God yeah.
34:27.23
Courtney
Um, um.
34:32.56
Courtney
Something that people would never guess about me I think a big these people that don't know me. Yeah.
34:41.90
a_goodburn
Yeah, well yeah, you meeting so on and then you say I do this and I go oh my God I wouldn't have picked that or yeah I I jump out of planes for a living or something or I bungee jump on the weekends.
34:53.96
Courtney
Well ah, but a big one is is that I'm pretty much covered in tattoos and I think people always get quite a shock when they realize that you can kind of see one. Yeah um.
35:02.59
a_goodburn
Like see the one on your arm. But that yeah I wouldn't have 5 one? yeah up but you.
35:09.98
Courtney
No I think I think it's especially being in um, quite academic circles and and working as a psychologist and often having long sleeves on I think people often get quite a shock when they realize I've got quite a few So I'll go with that.
35:26.67
a_goodburn
No, that's good I I mean I noticed I noticed the one on the arm. But I know I wouldn't have guessed that it's a so when so when you say a lot are we talking Arms Chest back legs bellah or or or.
35:29.65
Courtney
We.
35:39.51
Courtney
No, not not that many yet. But that's only because I've been studying so long I can afford them. Um, ah but all arms Shoulders Chest Yeah quite a lot. But yeah, definitely um.
35:48.83
a_goodburn
Um.
35:51.98
a_goodburn
Okay up I've.
35:57.58
Courtney
Probably doesn't go with my demeanor either I think when people first meet me just don't expect.
36:04.84
a_goodburn
But you as you say you to is that force you to wear long sleeves because if it might some people might find it um, unsettling.
36:11.71
Courtney
Um, sometimes sometimes I think it's not too unsettling because I don't think I'm very intimidating of a character but I do I do sometimes think about it in certain Contexts. So um.
36:23.82
a_goodburn
Most.
36:29.67
Courtney
Be safe from cover up just in case.
36:30.71
a_goodburn
And then when you want to become intimidating you just roll your sleeves up and that that does it so you sort of if you want to unsettle them a little bit. Oh that's no, that's good. That's exactly right? That's exactly right? doesn't change anything. Well.
36:33.95
Courtney
Yeah, yeah, yeah, unfortunately I'm still may exactly.
36:49.74
a_goodburn
Um, Goingnna I'm going to leave it there but you've done very well with the random questions considering you had no idea and there were some. There were some toughies there. Ah but I thought you could handle them I thought this is an educated person and who who's used to thinking about you know processes of thinking so this would be interesting to see how he would come up.
36:58.60
Courtney
Yeah.
37:06.30
Courtney
I Yeah yeah, well no problem at all.
37:09.74
a_goodburn
But thank you so much for your time and I and you know would feel with your busy time and know we've been communicating quite a lot to and fro to actually get this happening but um I Really appreciate your time and I ah hope for for um, every success for this project I think it's um, a brilliant. Ah. Ah area to be to be covering and I hope um great things come from ah and that ah a greater awareness comes from from this research that you're doing.
37:40.24
Courtney
Yeah, well thank you and thanks for your interest in the project and and hopefully when I finish the year and and the project is complete. Oh I'll make sure I get back in touch and let you know what we found because that'll be the interesting part.
37:56.60
a_goodburn
That would be wonderful. Yes, indeed indeed. Um, just incidentally and sort of off off the record have you contacted for um Media Entertainment Arts Alliance at all with with your research.
37:58.60
Courtney
Yeah, so.
38:11.52
Courtney
I Don't think so I've got a big spreadsheet I would have to yeah okay.
38:16.78
a_goodburn
They've they're the National Feather National Performing Union but they're I know that they very Big. Don't mean there's articles now and then talking talking about it but they've never I'm sure if there was. Some research going into it. They would be very keen to sort of put it out there and encourage their um Union members to participate because I think as they keep saying awareness and it needs to be a great awareness in the general public about.
38:33.80
Courtney
Um, and.
38:39.47
Courtney
Um.
38:45.70
Courtney
Yeah.
38:47.10
a_goodburn
What's going on so I've that that could be another area that you could explore if if you haven't yet. Thank you so much Courtney I'll I'll let you go and um, all the all the best with your project.
38:49.86
Courtney
Great. Thank you I will yeah no problem. Thank you and and you also with the podcast I look forward to sending it out.
39:05.58
a_goodburn
Yes, oh and ah and I'll um when I've got it all sorted and edited. Oh yeah, I'll send you a copy to have a listen to if you're happy with it and ah yes.
39:12.92
Courtney
Have you have you got a name for the podcast.
39:20.80
a_goodburn
At the moment. Well this is the working title at the moment. Um, my wife isn't 100% convinced on it. But um I ah I think it's um, um, what have I called it? um.
39:37.42
a_goodburn
Um, suffering for your art or um and a podcasting conversation something like that. So that's that's kind of the the idea she um she has problems with the word suffer I think we're going to go struggle for your art.
39:40.45
Courtney
Ah, yeah, yeah.
39:48.15
Courtney
Yeah, yeah.
39:55.18
a_goodburn
Um, I think so that might be the compromise but but I do I Yeah, it's but suffer sounds sounds a bit more negative. So so I think I I think I'm going more sliding down towards the um, what did I put down so I've got written down here somewhere. So I had this.
39:56.72
Courtney
Right? Okay, struggling struggling with fear out.
40:13.66
a_goodburn
I My eye. Oh yeah, here we goes. Oh no I have suffer where you are a journey through conversations. That's that's for working That's the working title at the moment but um, it might will probably change next time I speak to.
40:21.35
Courtney
Um, nice, yeah, well suffering is um, it is a very emottive term. It's a strong term but it's also it um.
40:29.70
a_goodburn
It is.
40:36.32
Courtney
You kind of know what you're talking about when you say that and well the debt the definition of of compassion is responding to suffering so.
40:39.41
a_goodburn
Yeah, yeah, ah it's I'm I'm I'm still I'm still flexible. So okay, okay.
40:53.27
Courtney
And that it makes sense to me and.
40:55.92
a_goodburn
No oh ah, that's that's a good point. That's a good. But yeah I'll f throw that her way. Um my wife's way. Thank you again I'll Ill I'll let you go and yes I I'll once I got more stuff I'll pass it on your way and you can have a listen to it.
40:58.61
Courtney
Yeah, yeah.
41:10.17
a_goodburn
Thank you very much you too take care.
41:11.93
Courtney
Sounds great. Have a good weekend. Um, like.
FOLLOW UP INTERVIEW RECORDING
00:00.00
a_goodburn
Okay, we're on. We're on so Courtney. Thank you so much. This is a little catch up because um I was I was checking the dates and I realized that it was over a year when we actually spoke and and I was thinking one of the.
00:16.90
Courtney
Um.
00:18.55
a_goodburn
Things that would be good would be just to add a little where are we now in the whole scheme of things with your research. So and I also was one of your um subjects in the interview last year um
00:32.33
Courtney
You.
00:35.85
a_goodburn
And so where are things now with you with ah with your research.
00:40.52
Courtney
Yeah, well thank you very much for having me back. Um, my mind is blown that it's been that long a little bit scary. Um, no no less air than I had last time. Um.
00:47.89
a_goodburn
You haven't changed a bit. No let's hear. No.
00:58.50
Courtney
So yeah, the the project is finished in in most ways. Um, so we've completed both parts of the the project so that was the first study being that kind of larger online survey and the second second study being more of a kind of brief. Intervention. Um, and so we've we've kind of gone through all the data and we have our kind of preliminary results. Let's say um so I can speak to those a little bit I guess the the what's to come is that we haven't yet submitted this paper to be published in an academic journal. So.
01:18.53
a_goodburn
Um.
01:28.55
a_goodburn
Um.
01:31.94
a_goodburn
Um, yeah.
01:35.23
Courtney
Everything is kind of preliminary until that occurs. So I apologize for any slight coiners in my responses and so I get I Guess um.
01:38.10
a_goodburn
Yeah, know is that's fine. You call away.
01:53.29
Courtney
Maybe if I speak to the first study first which was that big online survey so we had we had a really large response. We had several hundred participants and so these were in different forms of the performing arts in terms of primarily dance acting and music and. And really what we're interested in is is identifying that relationship between self-compassionate mental health and wellbeing and we were able to do that so essentially showing that um the the intention to be self-compassionate among performing artists was a really strong independent. Um.
02:32.30
Courtney
Associated. It was associated with these outcomes So the 3 outcomes we were really looking at were depression anxiety and general wellbeing and that the interesting thing that we were able to do um without getting to you know. Unnecessarily complicated with it was was we try and control for the effects of other things that probably have an influence on mental Health and so things that we are particularly interested in in terms of the performing arts we looked at things like body image alcohol use.
02:52.61
a_goodburn
Um.
03:09.43
Courtney
And general stress as well as other kind of demographic factors that we know are linked to mental health and so self-compassion was still kind of holding up as ah as a relevant factor even when we're kind of controlling for all of those impacts. So I guess what that means is that.
03:22.77
a_goodburn
Um, yeah.
03:27.14
Courtney
Yes, this. This relationship is really relevant in the performing arts and that self-compassion is something that um may hold somewhat of ah of a protective factor and so it kind of leads into the next study which is. Would like to find ways to try and build self-compassion among performing artists. Um, and so that so the second study which which you took part in was um, you know, essentially quite a. Preliminary study to just get a sense of here's a very simple self-compassion intervention and how how do performing artists relate to it. How do they feel like it contributes to their ah mental health wellbeing but also the ability to be a performer and to to function well in that space. Um. And so this was a very small study. So The results are much more descriptive rather than statistical. Let's say So what? what we saw is that in in that cohort people were reporting high levels of self-compassion at the end of the study.
04:25.60
a_goodburn
Um, yeah.
04:36.43
Courtney
They were reporting other positive things like higher rates of wellbeing lower rates of of stress things like this but I do just want to really emphasize This is just in terms of averages so because of the size of this cohort. We didn't do more? um.
04:47.33
a_goodburn
Um.
04:52.34
a_goodburn
Um.
04:55.12
Courtney
Robust kind of statistical analyses. So This is to be taken with a grain of salt for sure. This is really to set the scene for for further work down the track. Um, but the thing that was maybe more interesting is we also did these interviews with participants to get a sense of how did they go. Find using this this intervention. Um, and so what? what we do from that is so I did these interviews with all of the different participants. You were one of those and um, then I go through all of the transcripts and try and pull out what are the kind of.
05:25.10
a_goodburn
Yep.
05:32.40
Courtney
Common themes the themes that are coming out most consistently that that kind of speak to the questions that we had um and so I can speak to those a little bit. The I guess the part. The great thing is that you know there was a dominant sense that. This intervention was relevant to performing artists so people felt like working on self-compassion is something that makes sense as a performing artist and has a lot of suitability to lots of the stressors that the performing artists face so people spoke about the sorts of things that they find.
05:54.48
a_goodburn
Um.
06:08.85
Courtney
Typically difficult in that in that field of work. Um, and how self-compassion is probably well linked to to kind of respond to some of that. Um, that doesn't mean there weren't concerns or what we would typically call in the broader.
06:12.42
a_goodburn
Um, lower back.
06:20.50
a_goodburn
Um.
06:28.82
Courtney
Kind of compassion Science literature These kind of fears blocks and resistances to to self-compassion so that came up a lot as Well. So people would say um that there's this kind of cognitive. Belief that this is helpful to them. But there's still also a sense of what will happen to my performance if I take this on will it will it um soften my standards reduce my standards. Um, so that those sorts of concerns were still there. And I guess that just means that in any of these kind of interventions going forward. We need to do a lot of work in the in the kind of early phases to help people understand more about self-compassion and and try and target some of those fears at the out there.
07:19.29
a_goodburn
Yes.
07:22.95
Courtney
To start? Um, and then we we asked a range of questions about how these interventions could be suitable going for with performing others because obviously we want to try and build this into something more comprehensive and and I guess the key thing that came from that is people want a bit of everything. So.
07:39.88
a_goodburn
Yeah, yeah.
07:42.28
Courtney
Um, what we're really getting from that is that variability is everything people enjoyed that they had different meditations that they could use and really valued the idea of having shorter ones longer ones ones that they could use before a performance or after a performance. Different voices things like that. So that that kind of speaks to okay, we need to make sure that we're kind of building a suite or or kind of like a library and some sense of of these interventions so that people can find what they need when they need it in in the most suitable form.
08:15.36
a_goodburn
Sure.
08:19.90
Courtney
Um, there were also some interesting ideas of of how we could be implementing this um people felt like something that came up a lot was trying to get these into schools or training or workplaces. Um, which I think is a really you know.
08:32.10
a_goodburn
Yes, yeah.
08:37.66
Courtney
Fantastic point that there was there was a sense that came through a number of participants which was this isn't something we learn in in our training and so we need to get in early to try and help younger performers in particular. Um.
08:45.16
a_goodburn
No no.
08:55.63
Courtney
Have a better relationship with their with their wellbeing and a better relationship with things like self criticismtic and and shame and things like that. Um, so that's certainly where I guess we see this longer term is how can we start to implement this more effectively in a wide sense.
09:10.77
a_goodburn
Um, yes I mean I think that's fantastic. That is something like this could be implemented as a first year unit for performers that um, that they do this. Ah.
09:21.12
Courtney
Um, yeah.
09:26.83
a_goodburn
Ah unit on self-compassion and the importance of it that that would certainly go a long way in terms of potentially helping performers in the future and and also recognizing the benefits of um, practicing self-compassion.
09:42.79
Courtney
Absolutely yeah, so I think if there was a way to in future kind of align a program like this a much more extended extended program of course um, with a cohort.
09:54.96
a_goodburn
Oh.
09:56.88
Courtney
Such as that whether that's a first year uni cohort or with a particular studio or or something. Um I think that's where we could see the most impact. Sure.
10:05.50
a_goodburn
Yeah, so when how when when do you see yourself being published or was that sort of oh I mean you got to submit you got to submit first. So what's the timeline in terms of submission then publication.
10:18.58
Courtney
Um.
10:23.53
a_goodburn
Um, and then it sort of can potentially go public or for the for findings.
10:26.91
Courtney
Yeah, so I guess this is probably a nice insight for your viewers or your listeners um to how slowly things can move in the academic world. So um.
10:38.54
a_goodburn
Um, yeah.
10:42.75
Courtney
We're We're really hoping to get this submitted you know and then ah I'm conscious of saying it out loud because then I'm held to it but you know with it with within the next month. Um, and exactly when are you publishing this? um.
10:47.96
a_goodburn
And it's it Yes I said slopped in now. On friday.
11:02.30
Courtney
Ah, yeah, um, in terms of though how long from submission to publication is how long is a piece of string it could um it could be three months it could be a year it could be longer it. It depends on. Um.
11:12.61
a_goodburn
Um, yeah.
11:20.46
Courtney
So What happens is you submit it to journals and then ah other people basically review that work and give feedback and the editors make a decision and so based on perspectives of reviewers and editors and things like that it can either be delayed or um. Quicker's it's really varies. Um, so I couldn't say when it will be published but definitely we will will be letting all the participants know who who kind of signaled that they would like to hear the results of this will be sending that paper through to them when it is out.
11:55.17
a_goodburn
Great. Well thank you for the update and yes, it's is it again. It's going to be a to be continued um with this journey but it's but I really hope that. Um.
12:08.63
a_goodburn
This goes somewhere that it and as you say that it could potentially be implemented in um programs of the ah in the Arts programs with dance schools for performing um, musical schools and in.
12:27.79
a_goodburn
Conservatoriums for all this is sort of becomes an essential part of their learning because I think there'd be a lot of benefit from it for everybody So this so people out there if you if you're an organizer of ah so performing arts. Um.
12:29.92
Courtney
So yeah, absolutely.
12:46.00
a_goodburn
Contact me and we'll and up I'll pass you on and we'll sort of keep keep in touch. But yes and and by all means please um, let me know when um, further developments comes when it all when it all becomes official.
12:46.11
Courtney
Yeah, yeah.
12:55.77
Courtney
Like definitely I look forward to.
13:04.58
a_goodburn
Thank you Courtney and um have a great rest of your easter long weekend. You got any plan you hopefully you're relaxing. You're not working on this.
13:09.40
Courtney
Yeah, thank you I.
13:19.72
Courtney
Um, well I promised it'll be submit within a month now um yes that nothing very exciting. Unfortunately, there might be a little bit of work tucked away in there but we'll find some time to get outside and enjoy a long weekend.
13:21.51
a_goodburn
Yeah.
13:32.19
a_goodburn
Sure Well I won't hold you up any longer. But thank you very much for coming in to talk about um where you're at now and update everyone So and.
13:45.87
a_goodburn
We'll speak again soon I guess hopefully and when when you when it's all published and you're getting all the accolades and everything we can. Yeah.
13:46.69
Courtney
Yeah, yeah.
13:53.87
Courtney
Will say thanks so much Adam say you.
13:57.13
a_goodburn
Thanks a lot Courtney and we'll speak to you soon see.