For Episode 2 of 'The Struggling Artist - Creative Resilience', I talk with multidisciplinarian, Craig Behenna. Craig is an Australian coach, counsellor and therapist who works with anxiety, inner criticism and perfectionism with high-achieving artists, professionals and leaders. During the interview, we discuss why we experience perfectionism, a harsh inner critic. There are reasons why you experience behaviours that look like self-sabotage.
If you’re here, you’re probably asking questions about life. Maybe you’re thinking about your work. Your creative life. Your relationships.
Maybe you’re asking questions about direction. Perhaps you know your life isn’t in the place you want it to be. You want to know how to take the next step.
Perhaps you’re asking questions about how you can stay clear, grounded and present to make the best decisions for you, your project, your team, your relationships.
You want to feel as much inner peace, calm, centredness and presence as you can, even in the swirl of the moment when things are difficult.
If you’re looking for help with creative work and you’d like to know more about Craig's work in that world, you can read more about that here.
https://www.craigbehenna.com/about/
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;25;16
Adam
This episode deals with topics concerning mental health. If you find any of this podcast triggering, please call lifeline on 131114. If you're in Australia or your local mental health provider.
00;00;25;18 - 00;00;53;10
Adam/Julie
Welcome to episode two. Is that a bot talking or is that. It's not my bot talking. It would sound a little bit more different. It's just. We won't get into that. All right. We were talking about bots earlier, so I thought it might be the bot talking. Know only in the pilot teaser. Okay. All right. Yes. We didn't do that at the same time.
00;00;53;17 - 00;01;33;20
Adam
To all the bots out there. A big cheerio. Feel free to write in as well. We don't discriminate. Bots. Heads, shoulders needs toes. Yeah. Nostrils. Nostrils and then nostril hairs. So today's episode I'm going to be talking to Craig. The henna. Thank you. So Craig is coaching therapist filmmaker lecturer film acting at University of Adelaide.
00;01;33;22 - 00;02;04;15
Adam
But that's just from his LinkedIn. But if I click click over there's a bit more on his actual, website. At WW dot Craig, but henna spelt BHP and a.com. And the, the leading title on his web page goes overcome perfectionism and in a criticism transform anxiety into growth. And that's kind of how I met Craig.
00;02;04;15 - 00;02;32;26
Adam
I went to, workshop, which Craig ran, here in Adelaide. I can't remember the exact title, but it was words to the effect of understanding your inner critic. Yeah. And it was, I've really fascinating, workshop that and got a lot of insight from Craig, did a lot of meditation, which was something I wasn't expecting.
00;02;32;28 - 00;02;59;14
Adam
And it was also interesting just seeing a few young performers, who are studying at, music theater course here in Adelaide, being involved as well. And it's just refreshing to see it's not just old people who are suffering. Self-doubt is some young people too. What a strange thought. What young people having self-doubt. Is that possible? I thought you thought I would just.
00;02;59;16 - 00;03;22;10
Adam
I just think that old and decrepit. I thought they were at the wrong venue. I thought, no, no, no, no. This is for inner critic. Understand why you were interested in him, though. Adam. Because, you know, you you've you've, quite, honestly revealed that this is some of the stuff that you've experienced before. My inner critic and I have a very interesting relationship.
00;03;22;13 - 00;03;48;05
Adam
And it was. It's an ongoing journey. But it was a wonderful workshop, and I thought, oh, wouldn't it be really interesting to talk to Craig a bit more? And he was very, generous with his time. And this is the interview I had, and I hope you gain some insight from this chat that we had. Enjoy.
00;03;48;08 - 00;03;54;04
Adam
Enjoy.
00;03;54;07 - 00;04;24;00
Adam/Craig
Mr.. Henna. There we go. Excellent. Well, welcome to my little modest podcast. Thank you. All the all the growing listeners of about 50. Oh. Oh that's good. I think is hands are. I was jokingly saying in the early stages said it would just be 3rd May the person I'm interviewing and my mum. But so this is this is good.
00;04;24;04 - 00;04;53;17
Adam
This is so good. Must work. So what? I was going through your extensive history and all the things you've done. And one question I want to ask you sort of, maybe to get the ball rolling at a, at a dinner party and someone says, so what do you do? How would you what would you say? It generally depends on the week at the moment.
00;04;53;20 - 00;05;23;03
Craig
At the moment, I'm, working with John Yorke Story, who's the leading, story teaching company in the UK. John Yorke used to be the head of BBC TV. He ran EastEnders for years, so I'm currently at the sharp end of tutoring this screenwriting program. It's all online, asynchronous learning. Yeah. Going through all of that. I'm also doing some development work on some new scripts.
00;05;23;03 - 00;05;46;04
Craig
I cut one of my own and possibly Touchwood one in the UK in the next month or so. And ongoing with all of that is the coaching and teaching work, some of which is with creative people to help them bring more of themselves to their lives and work. It applies to everybody, but of course, but having worked in the creative industries for so long.
00;05;46;06 - 00;06;06;28
Craig
One of the things that I think people really appreciate in talking to a coach slash counselor slash therapist who has been around the block a few times, is that you don't have to explain everything for the first three sessions. So I'll often be talking to people about things like that. I've been teaching this semester at Uni Adelaide.
00;06;06;28 - 00;06;31;09
Craig
I do the film acting program there, which is how I did the, workshop a few weeks ago that you came along to. And, I also work as a coach for people in the corporate world, which is actually where I started coaching accidental. And that's an average week. To get you. Yeah. You wear a lot of hats.
00;06;31;11 - 00;06;55;01
Unknown
Many hats, a lot of them. The hats generally come. I often say to people that the hats generally for me come from the same place. It's just very odd manifestations. It's all about creating things and helping other people to do the things that they do best and create things. And that could be a script, or it could be an app, or it could be a better relationship.
00;06;55;06 - 00;07;17;01
Craig
All of those things are important. So a lot of the a lot of the tools and a lot of the modality and all of the various, many different studies that I've done over the years are all kind of in pursuit of the same thing. They just look like a very hectic CV at them. It's a hectic CV. It's an impressive CV.
00;07;17;03 - 00;07;44;24
Adam/Craig
That's for sure. So how did this journey for use in the creative industry, I suppose, begin? How did how did it all start for you? I started writing when I was about five because my mum was a schoolteacher, so she taught me to read very early and she taught me to read through comic books. So I was I was doing comic books at about the age of 5 or 6 and writing stories.
00;07;44;27 - 00;08;02;05
Craig
And then I kind of put that down for a long time in high school because high school and I, I refused to act for a long time. I was an actor for a long time, but I didn't act at all until Chris Ferguson, from what was then some back theater kind of pushed me on stage in my last year of high school.
00;08;02;08 - 00;08;26;04
Craig
Then I ran away from that and did an economics and accounting degree, because obviously, need a full. Yeah. Speaking of issues that needed to be addressed, and then ran away to acting school. So I went to Flinders Flinders Drama Center, and I also spent some time at Guildford School of Acting. Did the acting course there also studied directing, as it turned out.
00;08;26;06 - 00;08;52;25
Craig
And to cut a very long story short, spent some years in theater. Couldn't really get arrested that much in theater. And it became very apparent that actually what I needed to do was start writing films. And so I did that, started making shorts also with Nick Matthews, who's, a director and great cinematographer these days when very good things in Europe, we're still working together and film started to take off.
00;08;52;25 - 00;09;20;02
Craig
So we started making films that got into Saint Kilda and the Flicker Fest national touring program and things like that. And then we started making features like when I girl, the immediate result of making a feature film where the protagonist was a psychiatrist who got pulled into a cult, was that I started working in kids animation and, I've done a bunch of that, written some other live action as well, and writing's kind of taken over.
00;09;20;02 - 00;09;45;26
Craig
And along with that, along with all of that, I was really interested in it, how people worked. That was the thing that fascinated me with actors, like how people like the people, like the actors I grew up with, like Peter Sellers, Duckburg got all these old school English actors and more contemporary ones, but I got shown a lot of old movies growing up, how they were just more there and more present, and how that could bring all these people out from words on the page.
00;09;45;29 - 00;10;12;17
Craig
So that got me interested in how people were generally. So that got me started on the psychotherapy path, and that then later took me into coaching. And then when the pandemic hit, this most recent masters that I did in narrative therapy, because it was time to go back and do a qualification at an entry level in that.
00;10;12;20 - 00;10;51;20
Adam/Craig
That's cool. Short answer. There's no that's great. That's great. So when I met you, although dear listeners we have made quite a connection already from the, the deep dark past that. So did you actually play at the Henley Beach Chess. I sang in that one. Oh, you sang in it. Yeah. So I've got to state this. So because you're listening, you know, for people listening to this would be coming partway into this, I got involved in a production of Chess back in the 90s.
00;10;51;20 - 00;11;12;28
Craig
I think somewhere, sometime in the, in the 90s, and I had done a stage production of it, but they were going to do a revival and it was going to be on, Henley Beach Square. And youth were involved and both and I was and we didn't realize that this was before we knew each other. And now now our paths have crossed again.
00;11;13;03 - 00;11;35;09
Adam/Craig
That's right. We literally I played in the in the I okay. Another strand, trombone player for a long time and that turned into singing. Once I got into acting school, and I played in trombone in the first production of chess, and then ended up singing in the second one when somebody pulled out and I had to learn the entire score in a week.
00;11;35;12 - 00;12;05;18
Adam/Craig
And apparently you were standing next to me. So, yeah, I know it was. I think it was just as much a blur for me as it was for you. Probably so, I think so it just it it happened. Yeah. And we got both got for clearly. Yeah I remember it went well reasonably I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah yeah. So now jumping ahead quite a few years and then I attend a workshop that you're running about the dealing with your inner critic.
00;12;05;21 - 00;12;21;03
Adam
So if I may ask, tell me about your inner critic, Craig. That's a really interesting and direct question. That's great.
00;12;21;06 - 00;12;30;28
Craig
Let's just take a moment to see what my inner critic would like to say. My inner critic critic.
00;12;31;00 - 00;13;15;04
Craig
I'm just going to lift the lid on what I'm doing. So the way that I talk about the inner critic is that. The inner critic is an active part of each of us that will have something to say. Sometimes it's the voice in your head, sometimes it's a feeling of tension or whatever, but there's a very distinct way that it's communicating with you, and I find that it's helpful to talk about it in those terms, because it means that firstly, people can have the realization that these voices and difficulties,
00;13;15;06 - 00;13;34;05
Craig
Are not just them. And they can take a look at it and, and work with it. Secondly, they realize they're not alone in having these issues because so many times when we get down on ourselves or we hear these negative voices, as one of my teachers last week was saying to me, you get you get these thoughts that take you down the step.
00;13;34;05 - 00;13;54;22
Craig
And then they, they kind of want to keep taking you down more steps. And at that point you start feeling very alone. So I, I talk about these things so that people can feel like they're not alone, which is, of course, also reflecting back on times when I've felt alone because, you know, you always choose what you need to learn.
00;13;54;25 - 00;14;20;22
Craig
You know, there's a there's a obviousness there. So what I'm doing when I'm sitting here in silence is going, okay, what do you want to say? So if I sort of come to a moment of presence and awareness, what would you like to say? It's a part of me that is very dedicated to keeping me safe and sometimes has to go.
00;14;20;24 - 00;15;01;07
Craig
Feels like it has to go to pretty extreme lengths to hold me back, because otherwise I might do something that is not safe. And the word that's actually coming up for me when I say this is that things might crash. That's pretty traumatic, but that's what it's telling me at the moment. Thank you. Thank you. So one thing that fascinated me with when we went to the workshop was you spoke quite a bit about meditation and we practiced, a lot of meditation during the workshop and I think it was, dare I say, this might have been your inner critic yourself when you talked about that.
00;15;01;07 - 00;15;24;18
Adam/Craig
You weren't too good at it and you went to study in, in, in France. Plum some good, village. Can you share a little bit of that? And also that really cool. Caught my ear when I heard you talk about that. So my inner critic meant that I didn't practice meditation for about 20 years because I wasn't able to do it perfectly.
00;15;24;20 - 00;15;45;24
Craig
So when I first started to try to meditate, I was living in Sydney in the day as being a capital matter, as we all did, and I. This was before the internet at everything, so it wasn't so easy to find really good Zen teachers or Buddhist teachers or meditation teachers. I found a few flaky ones, but I didn't find any really great teachers.
00;15;45;24 - 00;16;05;00
Craig
So it was me and a copy of, The Three Pillars of Wisdom by the Zen Americans and teacher Philip Kepler. And I was trying to follow his instructions, but I couldn't do it. What I had in my head was perfectly because I kept having thoughts which I thought was a problem, Cliff notes. It's not a problem to have thoughts.
00;16;05;03 - 00;16;21;27
Craig
I think we can talk about that later. And because I was having all of these tensions and thoughts and other things happening, I thought it meant that I wasn't doing it well enough. So I stopped, so I didn't I didn't try anything for years. And I became what I discovered later that the term for it was a book Buddhist.
00;16;21;27 - 00;16;46;23
Craig
You write a lot of books. You don't actually get any practice. So I. I haven't really talked about this very much, but after we, we made a feature film and it did quite well at Adelaide Film Festival, that sold out lots of things. They put on extra screenings. That was great and I felt depressed. Exactly. So I had a little thought that said you need to go away somewhere.
00;16;46;25 - 00;17;12;16
Craig
So I was originally going to walk the Camino, but I got to London and I realized you're exhausted man. You don't, you do not want to be walking around with 20 kilos on your back. So that was a problem. And Hugh Parham, one of Adelaide's best known actors. Yes, he's currently performing here at the moment, currently performing in Symphony of the bicycle, which will be too late by the time this goes out.
00;17;12;16 - 00;17;31;15
Craig
But look out for it and it, he messaged me and said, well, you know, you've been talking about Tickner Hearn, the Vietnamese teacher whose book Teachings on Love I've been carrying around for years, hence the book Buddhist. Why don't you go to a village? Because in villages in the south of France.
00;17;31;18 - 00;17;51;09
Craig
And I thought, I was in an internet cafe. This is dating me. There were internet cafes that, in Clapham Junction, and I thought, all right, I'll give it a go. So. And what I now know is, is in miracle. There was somebody in the office. There was a 15 minute turnaround between them. May sending the email and them sending me a book booking link.
00;17;51;11 - 00;18;22;03
Craig
So I went to Plan Village and I, went there because looking back on it, I needed somebody else to show me. And I needed a community to help them. So I went there and I spent weeks there and, learned not just meditation. Although you absolutely do learn meditation if you go to Plum Village or any of the other, meditation centers that took that an established.
00;18;22;06 - 00;19;04;21
Craig
But I also learned a lot about how to live more mindfully, which means paying more attention to what's happening in the present and being more aware. And that became the foundation of. What I. What became a meditation habit that's been sort of every day for the last coming up to 11 years now. And a lot of what I talk about when people talk about what is mindful of mindfulness and meditation, it's a the kind of confusing words now because they're overused.
00;19;04;23 - 00;19;55;09
Craig
I kind of say that the most useful definitions I've been able to find, or the way to talk about it, is that meditation is the practice. Mindfulness is the experience of awareness and of what you're experiencing in the present. So I do a lot of, as you say, meditation work in those workshops because it's really helpful to let people know that they can experience something different to the stuff that's going on in their head, and in that way they can start to have a relationship with it that can go, oh, there is this voice or this tension or this awkwardness, and I'm feeling it.
00;19;55;11 - 00;20;10;07
Craig
So there's this me here that along with this awkwardness and tension in this voice. So now you've got the potential that you can have a relationship with it. And you can work with it on that basis.
00;20;10;10 - 00;20;38;20
Craig
So that's the, the of mindfulness and meditation in that work. Thank you. Yeah. And how do you think this can relate. And in the creative industry I mean, you seem to attending that workshop where quite a few young, students studying music theater, how can that help them with, with the work that they're doing and hopefully doing in the future?
00;20;38;22 - 00;21;01;19
Craig
The way that I work with, students of any bracket, actually, but particularly with young students, is to encourage them that, yes. You're in a training program and and take note of the training program because it's no mean feat to get into these training programs. The you're auditioning a lot. You're working very hard to take take the skills and things on board.
00;21;01;19 - 00;21;36;07
Craig
And also be very aware that who you are and what you personally bring, you uniquely bring personally, emotionally and vocally, physically, all of the other things. But her particularly personally, emotionally, mentally, your imagination, your tuition is the thing that is going to make you that particular unique actor.
00;21;36;09 - 00;21;54;29
Craig
And I think sometimes in training programs and I'm not I'm not pointing the finger at any particular training programs because I've spoken to a lot of actors over a lot of generations, and it seems to be a general thing in training programs, we can lose track of that very easily. We can lose track of the thing that got us in there in the first place.
00;21;54;29 - 00;22;06;26
Craig
We can lose track of the thing that that spark, that initial excitement, joy, passion that made us want to do it in the first place.
00;22;06;29 - 00;22;33;03
Craig
Again, it's right. Some. At times there's, I just feel like I need to point out that I'm not pointing the finger at any particular institutions, because there is a bit of a back going on at the moment about the stress load and the intensity of some institutions in some places around the world. So I'm not I'm not really having that conversation with the intent of of pointing the finger at anybody else.
00;22;33;05 - 00;22;53;27
Craig
But what I do find when I work with students is that the more we can focus on what they're doing and the bringing of themselves, that what's already that's already working, the better the work gets. And I've been doing this for a few years now. I thought it was an maybe you just kind of doing some weird thing that people are latching onto.
00;22;54;00 - 00;23;13;28
Craig
No, actually, I don't think I am anymore. What I'm seeing is that when we can identify and this is particularly hopeful when I'm doing film acting, because I can play things back. Very helpful when you can play things back and show people that it was really good. Do that bit twice and you've got 10s not just five.
00;23;14;00 - 00;23;46;14
Craig
Do that twice. Now you've got nearly 30s do that twice and now you've got to pull back, because if they watch a great first minute you're in. The more that we're able to encourage people to, yes, use all the tools but use the tools in service of bringing those strong creative impulses, thoughts, ideas, imaginations, intuitions into the work that's happening now in the present moment, which is the only place we can actually do it.
00;23;46;16 - 00;23;51;13
Craig
The better the work gets.
00;23;51;16 - 00;24;18;21
Craig
I could go off on this for quite a while. I don't want us, and I'm going to let you get in. Okay. That's that's fine. I mean, I, I find and I don't think this is a unique, trait and you might be able to go. Yes, I can relate to that too. Is, as a performer, I get in my head too much, or people say you're overthinking things.
00;24;18;21 - 00;24;43;22
Adam
You're you're very analytical. All of that stuff. And, I think I find myself at times some of that is what is the restriction that restricts me because I'm overthinking things. Rather than just going with the gut or just doing it. It's, it's sort of what would I think of me or that, but not too good.
00;24;43;25 - 00;25;11;15
Adam
And I suppose that just living in the moment and just and just just going with trusting your trusting your instincts, trusting your training, trusting, you know, you've got this far. So you must be doing something right. But yeah, I mean, do you find that, that that's that's a fairly common trait. And in particularly performance with I get sort of just stuck in their heads and and they can't really move forward from that funk for sure.
00;25;11;15 - 00;25;39;01
Craig
And it's with many artists, not just performing artists, but the ones that I work with a lot. And one of the things actually is to, as you say, yes, you if you, if you go in the room you've got in the room. So don't underrate yourself for getting in the room. That's, that's a big achievement. So yeah, you've got something that got you in the room and when you hear those voices, when you have that tension, we don't necessarily have to push that away.
00;25;39;04 - 00;25;42;21
Craig
This is something.
00;25;42;23 - 00;26;03;05
Craig
To teach what you need to learn. This is something that's been it was a difficult one for me to learn. Because we tend to think that we can only have one of them going on, and you might only have one thought going on at any one time. Yes, but you can certainly have two different systems competing for attention.
00;26;03;09 - 00;26;27;20
Craig
In my experience. And we tend to think that, oh, if this is this thought of, oh, what will they think of me is coming up, we have to push it down. This is a textbook definition of suffering. Because now we're looking at this thought, thinking, oh, I don't want that. Okay. That that may well be the case, but it is here.
00;26;27;20 - 00;26;52;25
Craig
It is present. And how we deal with that can be really important for the amount of energy, the amount of focus that we have for the audition or the performance itself. So this is this is where it's helpful to get to know that inner critic, because if we have that thought that comes up and says, what will they think of us?
00;26;52;26 - 00;27;14;21
Craig
And we can have the conversation that says, yeah, I know that's a really big deal for you. I get that, and I get and I understand that you want to do something that and I'm hope I'm not trying to put words in your head, but just to say, you know, if that would happen to me or, you know, someone, we can have that conversation to say.
00;27;14;23 - 00;27;39;26
Craig
We can have the conversation to say, yeah, this is tell me more about that concern that you have. Tell me more about what the origin of that is. Tell me more about what your what you what that means to you. Why you're feeling it so strongly. And then we can also say, can we talk about this in ten minutes.
00;27;39;29 - 00;28;02;07
Craig
That sometimes actually quite helpful. Yeah. And then the other things that happens and I don't know if this has ever happened for you, but I know this has happened for a few people that I've worked with. Sometimes that feeling of tension can actually be a real gift because it's actually, puts us in an ideal place to play the conflict of the scene.
00;28;02;09 - 00;28;30;25
Craig
Yeah, not always, but it's generally worth having a go. There's a, you know, there's a I know this is audio only this interview, but it's like a classic joke that I, that I tell that I've seen some actors on, you know, the old serpent soap actors who would kind of be doing these weird contortions with their face, and then they'd look at the camera, go, I really love you, Narelle.
00;28;30;25 - 00;28;54;04
Craig
And it was like, But if they'd taken the first one with all of that tension. And said, I love you, a through all of that tension, it would have been absolute gold. But we feel as though we have to push away the tension because we feel like we have to be comfortable. Yeah. And so there's this. So we've kind of I've kind of sidetracked.
00;28;54;04 - 00;29;26;24
Craig
But the point is that sometimes you can bring that tension and feeling along for the ride, because it's actually something that can help you and something that will give you an extra element of, energy and it will be uncomfortable because that's what drama is. Drama is the discomfort. And that's why we watch it. Yeah, yeah. How is,
00;29;26;26 - 00;29;41;04
Adam
The training that you've had with, connecting body and mind has, has that sort of helped you with your, with your work?
00;29;41;07 - 00;30;08;15
Craig
It helped me in the beginning to realize that a lot of what I had to do was already in there, and then it needed shaping and it needed, it needed a certain amount of technique and a framework. And also mostly what it needed was encouragement.
00;30;08;18 - 00;30;14;25
Craig
And just seeing if I can think of a particular example of that.
00;30;14;27 - 00;30;45;01
Craig
Let's talk about the mind body connection, because one of the things that I found most interesting, this is what I found through meditation, was that the mind and body actually always were connected. And it's only been in the last few hundred years that we've actually had a problem with mind body connection. So there are these studies that have been done in recent years which show that we have we have brain cells in the heart.
00;30;45;04 - 00;31;27;07
Craig
Now, the earliest study I can find on that goes back to about 1994. There may be earlier, but that's the earliest one I can find. There are also studies that show that the, the biome, the gut is aligned with, cells that communicate very directly straight up to the brainstem. Not linguistically. This freaked out the people who were doing the study because it meant that there was communication not just coming down from the brainstem, using thought, but coming back from the bone self, which is gut instinct, intuition, any number of things that was not necessarily using language.
00;31;27;10 - 00;31;45;21
Craig
So what that meant for me was that I had to start trusting my intuition, which was scary and and continues to be scary. Actually, there have been a number of times in my life and in my career where intuitions have popped up and I thought, oh, I can. The rationalist brain has popped up and said, that can't be right.
00;31;45;24 - 00;32;23;22
Craig
So I've ignored it and it was absolutely bang on. So one of the things that that I've had to learn is trust. Trust in myself. Trust in, teachers trust in some forms. And also, I've really had to learn to, come to more of a place of stillness and awareness rather than constantly be trying to stick more learning in my head, which I'm still doing, but hopefully for a different reason.
00;32;23;25 - 00;32;56;16
Craig
So that all of those different lessons can percolate and help rather than just be one more achievement. I've got to knock off and then onto the next one. Also, it's helped me hopefully be more present with other people, which is hopefully if I am a good teacher. I think that's one of the reasons why just the practices of presence and being able to bring out the things that I've learned that are useful in that moment.
00;32;56;18 - 00;33;29;09
Adam
Cool. Good, good. So now there was one thing looking at your impressive CV that sort of jumped out at me and I thought, if I could ask you, I, I've not seen these terms before, but I'd be really interested in learning a little bit more about it. But so that was psycho synthesis and transpersonal psychology and what what is that.
00;33;29;11 - 00;33;59;13
Craig
Yeah. Good question. So, psycho synthesis is a is the form that I studied a few years ago with, D.T. firman long distance via zoom shares in New York or New York State. And I'm in Adelaide. And my goodness, there were some very awkward late night. So let's talk about transpersonal psychology. And I years ago I said my, you know, my partner was saying, what is this psycho synthesis thing that you're doing?
00;33;59;16 - 00;34;21;24
Craig
When I was training and I turned out to transpersonal psychology, and I thought I was going to have to do a bunch more explaining, and she really latched onto that word transpersonal. And she kind of heard that trends and said, oh, so the self isn't fixed. And I said, yeah, and I've been stealing that from her ever since.
00;34;21;27 - 00;34;58;19
Craig
Transpersonal psychology builds on some of the forms of other psychologies, such as, behaviorism, humanism, and argues that our psychology is much more than behavior, that we, constantly throughout our life, able to develop and evolve and grow. So this self that we tend to take for granted in this culture actually can be opened and developed.
00;34;58;22 - 00;35;28;09
Craig
One of the pioneers in this world actually was Abraham Maslow, who psychology defines mono for the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. In his later life, Maslow actually said, actually, I think I've kind of got the hierarchy of needs wrong. A little bit, and that the peak of the pyramid, which is traditionally taught as self-actualization, with that very strong emphasis on the individual self, actually was more about, connection and community.
00;35;28;09 - 00;36;05;27
Craig
There's a lot more to go into than that, but I'm not going to let myself get sidetracked on that. So, Let's talk about psycho synthesis then. Psycho synthesis is, a form of transpersonal psychology, which holds that people, first and foremost, centers of awareness, which I've talked about a lot. This has been one of the reasons why meditation has been so important to me, why Zen has been so important to me, is that awareness and presence are very important.
00;36;05;27 - 00;36;34;19
Craig
In those moments, we have an understanding of who we are at this moment and what we want to do and what we want to bring into the world. And then, we concern ourselves firstly for mostly with where we find meaning, where we find purpose and how we live according to what is most important to us in life, which is often called values.
00;36;34;19 - 00;37;00;26
Craig
But values is kind of a weird word in the culture at the moment. So I tend to say, how do you live according to what's most important to you? When people get that much more easily? So within that. We are then able to look at three different levels of the personality. There's the, the, integrating the personality, which we've talked about a little bit, by starting to get to know the inner critic.
00;37;00;29 - 00;37;20;03
Craig
If you start and get to know the inner critic, you can start to bring them in a little bit. And you can. We start to be able to have a relationship with them that is not vastly separate. We understand that we're actually connected and that there's a reason for these elements of self. What's a synthesis called sub personalities?
00;37;20;05 - 00;37;46;17
Craig
Internal family systems calls them parts similar principle what they are actually therefore. And we can start to bring them in and start to have a relationship with them. So we call this sort of a personal circle synthesis of bringing the different bits of ourselves into a sort of harmony, rather than being in this kind of weird, awkward dissonance and discomfort that we sometimes feel.
00;37;46;19 - 00;38;16;25
Craig
And there's also that might also lead us into the, the unconscious. Jung. And, so Joly, who was the founder of Psycho Synthesis and was a, a colleague of Jung's and a student of Freud's, use the house metaphor. Sometimes you want to look down in the basement, but maybe you don't have to. And also, sometimes it's really helpful to look up in the attic where the creative self lies, where possibly, if you're interested in that sort of thing.
00;38;16;27 - 00;38;42;24
Craig
The spiritual aspect of self lies, where some of those, intuitions and creative, inspirations can come to you once you're starting to do the work of bringing this synthesis together and being a little more open to that world. Within all of that, there are lots of different techniques and lots that you can use, lots of different modalities.
00;38;42;24 - 00;39;07;24
Craig
So it's in a sense, it's a collection of principles about how to work rather than being restrictive on what you actually do. There are definite exercises that we do. But I also mean, as I say, as you've said, you've well, you've seen we use a lot of I use meditation. Some people do, some people don't. Yeah. But I find it really helpful, particularly with creative people, because they tend to have an interest in getting to know that creative part of themselves.
00;39;07;26 - 00;39;50;23
Adam
Yeah, yeah. Now, one of the questions I generally ask, the people I interview, and I'd kind of list it later this year because you, you made a comment saying, that's an interesting way to start a conversation. It's coming up. Was the idea that should artists suffer for their art now, the reason why I asked this question, because I've always felt and partially believed to a certain extent, was that, in order to be truly creative and open, there has to be a certain level of suffering involved.
00;39;50;23 - 00;40;22;12
Craig
And I suppose looking back at history, some of the most creative artists around were going through some pretty dark times. But my other sort, my says that's not a really healthy way to live and and function. So while of a pragmatic side of me will say, no, I think you can sort of live quite a healthy life and still be creative.
00;40;22;15 - 00;40;41;25
Craig
There's a side and I think to a certain extent perhaps from, other people in society who think now that, you know, hence funding low funding and stuff like that, saying, well, if you give them too much money, they'll just squander it. So let's just give them the bottom dollar, and that will force them to be creative and come up with something, because that's what creative people do.
00;40;41;27 - 00;41;11;11
Craig
So yeah, it's that idea that do we need to suffer in order to be, to create, to create something special? What do you think? I think the most interesting thing about what you've just said is the conversation you're having with yourself. I'm not going to psychoanalyze you and, and don't worry, the things that I, it's really interesting to hear you talk about.
00;41;11;13 - 00;41;35;18
Craig
Should artists suffer because there are examples and stories of artists suffering while simultaneously, the next thing out of your mouth is then there's this other part of me that said that I think this is a very healthy way to live. And that's that's a really interesting conversation. And if we had more time, we would I would possibly ask if we could have that conversation with those parts of you.
00;41;35;21 - 00;41;43;07
Craig
But what I'm going to say, what I'm noticing is that you're paying attention to those stories of suffering.
00;41;43;09 - 00;41;54;00
Craig
And also, there's that part of you that is saying, yeah, these are stories of suffering. I don't know how I feel about this.
00;41;54;03 - 00;42;15;05
Craig
So it is an interesting word, right? Should I suffer? Well, if you if you're feeling better than you feeling bad. So whether you whether you should or not is is kind of neither here nor there. So let's work with the fact that you're feeling bad if you are. But what I'm also hearing is that we're talking about.
00;42;15;08 - 00;42;33;21
Craig
Other people's experiences or other cultures, experiences or outsiders experiences of people who are outside the industry saying, oh, we should we should cut their funding. And, you know, then we'll just force them to be creative is that there's that kind of theory that says if you put a piece of coal under enough pressure, you'll get a diamond. This does work.
00;42;33;21 - 00;43;06;17
Craig
Once in every I don't know the percentages, but it's a very low percentage of the time. And what I can also say is that, life's difficult enough without making a more difficult, The process of being an artist involves developing and growing that part of you, which is aware and creative and whole and and and sometimes broken.
00;43;06;17 - 00;43;40;18
Craig
That's okay too. That's a, that's a good place. If you feel if you have that experience. And in my experience, people get better with massive encouragement. And they get better with frameworks sometimes frameworks with a certain amount of strength that are held with a certain amount of strength that can be challenging and difficult. But my experience has been.
00;43;40;20 - 00;44;02;22
Craig
Yeah, there are, there are, there are examples of people who have gotten very good at a skill through being pushed, but they're also very unhappy. There are examples of people who have gotten very good at things through being pushed out from a place of joy and excitement and creativity. And yeah, it's this is this can be really hard.
00;44;02;22 - 00;44;20;23
Craig
And the first few years of your career are really hard because you have no money in the next few years of your career might also be hard because you still have no money, but you can still be creating from a place where you're doing what you want to do, regardless of whether it's hard or not. Does suffering come with that?
00;44;20;23 - 00;45;01;10
Craig
You. Yeah, sometimes. But suffering is, you know, the the Zen path will tell you all. The Buddhist person will tell you that things are difficult. And if we're aware of the difficulty of things, there's also a way through those difficulties to the point where we can start to live with more compassion. Possibly the most important part of the whole process actually, with more openness and with more heart, that interacts well with our own creative parts and those with those of others.
00;45;01;13 - 00;45;05;12
Craig
That's what I think today.
00;45;05;15 - 00;45;40;05
Adam
It is not, you know, like, I like it when, So getting back to your impressive CV, it says anything that you like. I really want to do that. Is there anything that you got? That's what I'd like to do. A number of things.
00;45;40;07 - 00;46;19;23
Craig
I would like to be doing more. One of the things that I'm thinking about a lot at the moment is getting into the world of, the writing producing side of TV, in particular. As a as somebody who's, who's I've sort of done enough of this work to be slightly dangerous. So I'm, I'm getting into, I'm getting to the point where, I work with people on scripts, as scripts and also as things that are going to get made because I spend enough time on set to know how to trip over a cable.
00;46;19;25 - 00;46;46;03
Craig
So that's that there's, a developing scene in that world of the writer producer, the script producer who helps bring scripts to fruition dramatically, and also is a thing that can get shot within the schedule and budget that you've got. It's not to be taken for granted. I'm really enjoying thinking about that at the moment.
00;46;46;05 - 00;47;31;13
Craig
Yeah. Thinking about I want to I think the next thing that I write for myself will probably be a book called early in the Snow Child, which was going to be a an animated feature. But I think actually now it's going to be a book with illustrations because particularly because the way the world works at the moment, it's probably more likely to be a film if you write the book first, but it's a a book about, a young girl who moves to a new city with her mum, who is experiencing some depression, and she and Allie meets a magical snow child who shows her through, through the local snow people because it's winter
00;47;31;15 - 00;47;56;25
Craig
and also through adventures, through the town and through her life. That there is always hope and that the snow child itself is made up of everything in the cosmos, just like she is. The water and the sky and the earth all go together to make everybody up and so there is always somebody there for her to, to help.
00;47;56;27 - 00;48;22;24
Craig
So it's sort of a book that I want to write for. Young people who have grown up in families where there were mental health issues like mine and who could do with that message, and for the adults who are reading it to them, I think that's the next thing. Yeah. Watch this space. Yeah. Give it a couple of years.
00;48;22;26 - 00;48;53;15
Craig
Fantastic. Now, I thought of one more thing, actually, as well I. Yeah, yeah, I'm really enjoying teaching and I'm really enjoying coaching. I want to be doing a lot more of that, finding ways through these workshops, for example, that I'm starting to run on, the inner critic that's starting to get legs a few more people have asked me if I'm going to be doing more of that, and I really like those workshops, partly for their own sake, but also because they're kind of a Trojan horse, right?
00;48;53;15 - 00;49;25;29
Craig
They get us into how we can have better relationships with ourselves in general, through having that conversation with the inner critic and also finding, more space to be doing some of that creative coaching work, helping people to develop their own practice and career. That's something that I've realized is giving me probably the most juice, actually, that's the thing that I had a really practical level that I want to be developing over probably the next few years.
00;49;26;02 - 00;50;05;27
Adam
What I found really interesting, and having gone on my own little personal journey for the last three years or so, but so a lot of what you were saying at the workshop, I've heard to some greater or lesser extent in, in, in other places, but but one thing, it really, it's interesting to seeing similar stories coming from other people and of different varying ages too, to hearing people in their early 20s going through quite a lot of stuff that, I've been feeling I could certainly relate to.
00;50;05;27 - 00;50;29;26
Craig
And I'm sort of thinking, you're young, you're just starting, you know? You know, why are you so hard on yourself now at such an early stage? But it doesn't really matter. But I did find it, books. There was quite an, age range in that meeting, even though it was a sort of relatively small group. But I found that quite, valuable.
00;50;29;26 - 00;50;52;13
Craig
Also almost a little bit of a shared experience were sort of sharing, in a safe way, our own stories and experiences. But, but it was so in the psychotherapy group session. Well, that's, that's the benefit of doing these things in groups, because it's a practical way of where people actually not just here, but they feel that they're not alone.
00;50;52;16 - 00;51;19;06
Craig
So sometimes I do these online and sometimes I do them in person. I at least in Adelaide, I'll do some more in person because people have this experience where they walk into the room thinking that they have the problem. And sometimes we think that we are the problem, and then we hear other people say things that are eerily close to our own personal experience and we think, oh no, hang on, I'm I'm actually not.
00;51;19;09 - 00;51;50;13
Craig
The problem. This, I hear, is not actually the problem. Because if other people are having this issue as well, maybe there's something else going on here. And that kind of brings us to the other reason why I'm doing some of this inner critic stuff is that I think it's getting worse, particularly with the younger generations sex sub 35 I think both in the creative and the corporate clients that I speak to, the self-criticism and perfectionism is being drilled into people harder at an earlier age.
00;51;50;16 - 00;52;32;10
Craig
Maybe the maybe it's just it maybe it's just a slightly different way of seeing that I'm seeing now. But I don't think so. I'm seeing a lot of particularly pretty young people, as you say, even sort of late teens and so mid 20s who are experiencing a lot more of this negative self-talk, negative self-image. And I think there's a need to achieve it, even just getting people in the room and letting them know that they're not alone, and then providing these tools to show that you can develop a different relationship with yourself, and that there's actually much more of yourself going on in here than you're giving yourself credit for.
00;52;32;12 - 00;53;06;14
Craig
And that's not your fault. It is systemic. If everybody is doing it, it's not your fault. It is systemic. There are other aspects of the culture that are training this into us. Again, I could go off on a rant about some. I'm not going to, but the point is, one of the main benefits of doing these kind of workshops and doing work with people in groups or one on one, is to help them to bring this stuff into the light and put it outside themselves for a moment so that they can have a different experience of themselves and open themselves up to a better experience of themselves.
00;53;06;16 - 00;53;26;08
Craig
And so to be able to do what they want to do in life from a better place and to have, satisfaction and joy in doing it, rather than having that perfectionist thing that I know only too well of, you know, winning the award or getting the thing released or finishing the script and giving yourself seven seconds of satisfaction before you push onto the next thing.
00;53;26;11 - 00;53;48;07
Adam
That's that's the that's another thing that I'm really big on is now, actually, this is really good. You should enjoy it. Yeah. Goodies. I goodies said five. Question number one.
00;53;48;10 - 00;54;27;22
Adam/ Craig
Ready? What's the biggest risk you have ever taken? Observing of a building. Wow. Where? University of Adelaide, the most. The riskiest thing is actually just taking that first step off the ledge. And then you're on the wall and you go, oh, okay. It's downhill from here. Yeah. It's very vertical hill.
00;54;27;25 - 00;54;35;11
Adam
I'm just going I'm going through my list. Okay. How that.
00;54;35;13 - 00;55;01;04
Craig
What is the most unexpected turn your life took? Oh. That's a good question. There have been a few. You can be one. You can be one of them. Yeah, well, I think, I was sitting in my parent's car one day when I was four, and I just had this thought as I was looking out the window.
00;55;01;04 - 00;55;21;06
Craig
Is life a dream? And that kind of I kind of pushed that away because there was nobody to talk to about that at the time. But that has kind of really shaped a lot of the way I see the world. Very weird and unexpected. So for a four year old to have, even then, I knew it was an unexpected thought for a four year old to have.
00;55;21;06 - 00;55;38;16
Craig
But I was like, oh, this is had there been a few Tibetan monks around the place, life could have been very different. But the ones singing row, row, Row Your Boat at the time or anything for me was not. No. We were sitting around at the corner of the street, more shops and Henley Beach Road just past bus stop 22.
00;55;38;19 - 00;56;01;09
Craig
I don't know. Deep four year old Ford. Yeah. If you could ask your future self one question, what would it be? How are you?
00;56;01;11 - 00;56;15;18
Craig
Fair enough. Yeah. Are you happy? Yeah. Would that be something I'd be asking yourself. Yeah. Are you okay. Are you okay.
00;56;15;20 - 00;56;24;10
Craig
Slight pause. How are you and how can I help?
00;56;24;13 - 00;57;00;22
Craig
Whose advice do you value the most? Oh, I'm fortunate I have a few people in my life that I can turn to and is one of them. Very grounded and level headed. I have some good mentors in my Zen teachers, Alan Merritt and Steve Work and few of the friends that I met in the US, my colleague Nick Matthews and Mark Darren, who I've met a lot of movies and other bits and pieces with over the years.
00;57;00;24 - 00;57;23;10
Craig
We've mentioned Hugh, who sent me to Plum Village, so it was a good bit of advice. Okay, Hugh, I'm a beach, so I'm. Yeah. As I'm rattling all of these things off it, it's it's a it's a nice list to connect to, to remind you that there are, there are people in the world. Oh, Chris. Chris Ireland.
00;57;23;12 - 00;57;40;05
Craig
Firm Furman who may hear this holiday, who I'm working with at the moment, actually, she's editing one of my articles. So there are actually quite a number of people who. And Tick nut hunter his books. He's no longer here, but he was there at Plum Village when I was there, and I've accumulated a lot of those books.
00;57;40;06 - 00;58;02;00
Craig
So there are a lot of people who I take advice from who are here. I think this is the fifth one. This is number five. I'm not sure on count. I'm counting off to my head. I'll just. I'll just pretend to be. You've on this one if I'm on show. I think this is fifth one. How do you make tough decisions?
00;58;02;02 - 00;58;35;25
Craig
That's a really good question. This is an area where I actually, sometimes will struggle because I'm still working on developing that intuition. So working on and unlocking some of that intuition. But sometimes I will do the thing that is most that is clearest in front of me. But what I'm also trying to do now is work on the thing that is most directly in front of me.
00;58;35;25 - 00;58;59;00
Craig
That also makes the most sense in my whole body. Diana Chapman as a coach in the US, she talks about the whole body. Yes. So I'm trying to go for the whole body. Yes. I have a slightly more woowoo answer. Do you want to hear it? Go. Please lay it on me. So I think there are times in your life when the universe talks to you.
00;58;59;02 - 00;59;25;21
Craig
I. I went against this idea for years because of the rationalist accountant in me. But I've had times in my life where either through intuitions or through people just saying things to me in passing, you know what? That it's actually the universe talking to you, giving you advice. And a lot of the time I have actually ignored that advice, which I think is one of the reasons why I study this so much, because I want to get better at it myself.
00;59;25;24 - 00;59;48;06
Craig
And my the thing that I'm considering at the moment is how do I listen more to what the universe is telling me? I don't know if that makes any sense to you at all, but it's making more and more sense to me in the last sort of five, ten years. It makes sense. I don't know how well I've listened to the universe either, but it does make sense.
00;59;48;06 - 00;59;51;24
Craig
And.
00;59;51;26 - 01;00;15;05
Adam/Craig
Craig, thank you so much for this interview. It's if people want to contact you, for coaching or your your wonderful words of wisdom, it's, what's the best way to get in touch with you? So I'm Craig, beginner at everything. I'm on Instagram and Twitter. Not so much anymore. But still there. But the best way to find me is at my website.
01;00;15;05 - 01;00;45;07
Craig
It's Craig, the hannah.com, which is spelled C, AIG and the Hannah is b e h e. So two is then double in a.com. And you can also just email me at Craig at Craig the hannah.com. I work with people who create things. And as I said, that's a pretty wide remit for me considering I used to be, an accountant and work in that world.
01;00;45;07 - 01;01;12;12
Craig
So I understand that some there is some pretty creative stuff going on in the corporate world and in the tech world and all the rest of that. So, and also across performing arts writers, directors, all the rest of those things. Also, I'm going to be doing more workshops, both the inner critic, and also I'll be doing more meditation workshops in the coming months, in-person and online.
01;01;12;15 - 01;01;36;18
Craig
I started doing that in recent years. I'm a oh, I certified as a meditation teacher because of course I did with, one of the Zen teachers that I work with in the UK does. And Roshi so I do, a series of courses with people to help them establish that sense of feeling and sense of self through meditation.
01;01;36;20 - 01;01;54;13
Craig
So we'll be doing more of that in the second half of the year. So if you're interested in one on one or group work or both, or you just want to say hi and pick my brains about anything, that's also, as you can tell, that's also fun. It's tend to go on that. Please do get in touch.
01;01;54;15 - 01;02;19;21
Adam
Absolutely. Craig, thank you so much for your time and for your wisdom and words. I hope to see you soon at one of your workshops. Yes. Yes, definitely. We'll be in touch for sure. Thank you for today. It's been cool. Thank you. All the best. Thanks. Take care. Thanks for.
01;02;19;23 - 01;02;43;07
Adam/Julie
And thank you very much, Craig. Wow, that was amazing. I feel like I need to meditate now. I think I mentioned it in the interview where I do find it hard to meditate. I tend to fall asleep. And that's okay. Apparently, I can, That's the thing I, I suppose I was a little bit critical saying I'm not good.
01;02;43;07 - 01;03;11;06
Adam/Julie
But then again, that's your inner critic saying saying those things kind of defeats the purpose. If you're just going to criticize yourself for not being up to this front, what it's all about. And it was interesting because as you might be, suspecting with the interviews I've done, a lot of the people I've had a prior relationship with in terms of friendships and, and I know them quite well now, now and then, and in this case with Craig, there was no sort of prior connection.
01;03;11;06 - 01;03;30;26
Adam/Julie
So I always sort of go in with a little bit of trepidation talking to someone that I'm not that familiar with, but, and am I asking the right things? It became a little bit of, an analysis of me and said, what? No, it's fine, but he was he was just so fascinating. I mean, just see whether you're into art or whatever you're into.
01;03;30;26 - 01;03;55;11
Adam/Julie
But just his way of thinking and the studies that he's done and everything, I think a lot of people could take something away from it, whether it be you're an artist or a sports person or just somebody who suffers from, you know, any kind of self-doubt. Yes. And I think it's something that does need to be actively discussed, particularly amongst performers.
01;03;55;14 - 01;04;25;12
Adam/Julie
Because it's, people just think it's just me who's his suffering. This, I'm, I'm the only one who is, having these thoughts when really everyone, to a greater or lesser extent, they just either cover it up or deal with it in a different way, but it's still the same thing. So I think getting it out in the open, well, in a, in a lot of sense, not make it quite as, bad and not affect us as much.
01;04;25;18 - 01;04;45;19
Adam/Julie
No, I very interesting interview and a bit different, but so I try to be relevant when we're talking about artists and, and anyone that, you know performs for the religious and their normal work or whether it be something creative, I think it's, very relevant. So yeah, that was fascinating. So as always, thank you for listening to this podcast.
01;04;45;22 - 01;05;10;06
Adam
If you would like to get in touch, you can contact me via email on Singular Productions at Big Pond Scum. This is a totally voluntary, not for profit. I don't get any money for this, so. But, but it would be nice just, I think the, the payment would be just to hear, feedback from you, you listeners out there.
01;05;10;06 - 01;05;32;28
Adam
That would be the payment that I would like to, do it. So thank you again and look forward to your patronage for episode three. Awesome. Go. Well, I.